Grouping ethics... - Page 4 - Guild Wars Forums

Ninna · Jun 14, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

I'm sorry, but I WOULD expect a 2nd monk to have a ress SKILL (ie unlimited uses). Even my W/Mo has one, and believe me, I have plenty of other stuff to spend that slot on.

Creston

I have never met a monk without rez

Sadly, I have met E/Mos with no rez
(which I personally find inexcusable because E/mos are often the 2nd best healers -- after a monk)

I've failed plenty of missions because the sole survivor of a bad encounter didnt feel any need to bring a rez signet

it depressing having a group cheering the last person alive to escape
- only to find out 2 minutes later they have no rez signet

Akshara · Jun 14, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Only the person maintaining it has lower energy regen...I pity the caster who was trying to keep you mended due to your ignorance.

Thanks to all for the clarification, as none of the negative energy degen spells that I've read say in their description that only the caster is effected explicitly.

Yet still, there's no reason to pity the caster due to my ignorance, as I would politely ask them to just turn it off and focus on someone else, and give them that one regen back. No harm, no foul.

Akshara · Jun 14, 2005, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Either the warriors are scared to take point and fight or they try to "pull" things towards the group and in doing so the aggroed mob goes flying right passed the warriors and attack the casters.

I've seen this kind of comment a few times now, and can't imagine a warrior who is actually scared to fight or tank... that seems a little ridiculous. I know that in my case that what often happens is when/if I stop to survey the path ahead or take an accounting of the creatures ahead to figure out an effective approach, that someone in the group usually gets impatient and just runs ahead leaving me behind. It's not a fear to fight or take point, but an attempt to apply patience and tactics in an effort to assess the situation ahead.

Some creatures will do an end run around the warrior toward the group no matter what you do. In those cases, what seems to work best is to let the warrior get far enough ahead of the group to get the creatures' attention on them first, and then have the group come in close once that's established.

Plus sometimes the best approach is not the direct one... moving along the compass and approaching the group from a different angle, or pulling the creatures toward a tactical land position can have an effect on who gets the aggro, and how the creatures approach the party.

Tellani Artini · Jun 14, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

I think healing prayers is a horrible choice for a w/mo, smiting all the way.

Akshara · Jun 14, 2005, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Other than in specific situations, I'd like to see 120+ dmg from an Axe wielder consistently...it won't happen....but I do agree whole heartedly that each class or party member has a role and needs to stick to it.

Hmm... if I use just about any damage boosting skill, my axe will hit for 120+ damage most of the time. With using no skills at all and just swinging normally, it does a minimum of 80 damage on just about every hit, unless the creature is heavily armored or placing a hex on me that messes with my attack.

Of couse, I have 13 Axe Mastery, 7 Strength and three customized max damage axes (+20%), each with a +16% or higher damage under certain conditions. I focus on deep wound inflicting skills combined with Axe Twist, which adds weakness on top of the wound, and then Executioner's strike for a damage spike, or Penetrating Blow which adds a damage spike and +20% armor penetration. I often see numbers pop up that are around 120 or higher, at least on creatures in the Maguuma Jungle, which is where my character is at.

I guess a lot of it does have to do with when I strike, and under what conditions that attack is happening. Axe skills are great for applying deep wounds along with other conditions on top of that, then laying in with a massive spike hit to take them down. Great for use against self healers.

Akshara · Jun 14, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

I've failed plenty of missions because the sole survivor of a bad encounter didnt feel any need to bring a rez signet

it depressing having a group cheering the last person alive to escape
- only to find out 2 minutes later they have no rez signet

I tend to tell the party upfront before we leave that I do not have res signet, which usually gets the group discussing who does and who will equip one. I'll try to remember that list who does, and then focus on helping keep one of them alive when the group is in a dire situation. It also never hurts to remind the last surviving healer with a quick, "I don't have res!" or simply "Run away! I'll hold them here!" to the one who does have a res signet when the healer goes down, and then try to pull the mob away from the downed monks position.

MaglorD · Jun 15, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

I disagree.

First of, your primary monk will have around 40 energy (on average), where I have 80. While his divine favor at, say, 10, will do 34 extra healing per spell, he can only keep casting for about a minute or so at a sustained rate (using orison of healing) before running into energy issues.

I use Heal Other and Healing Breeze at healing 12. I have no real specific spell to heal myself, which is a weakness, but I simply overcome that by never aggroing. And if a monster DOES happen to find me offensive, I'll train him on the tank. I never understand why people that aren't supposed to be tanking take along three or four PERSONAL protection /healing spells anyways??

But I digress. I can keep up to three party members healed for about 1.5 to two minutes before I start running into energy issues. That's a lot longer than the monk can do it.

Hey, don't get me wrong, primary monks rock. But the E/Mo is a VERY, VERY good healer. If you don't believe me, team up with me sometime, Shauna Wolfsclaw. If the team does their job right, and only two tanks are taking damage, I can keep them healed until Anet switches off the servers.

Creston

Hmm, there are other very powerful healing skills in the divine favor category which an E/Mo cannot use effectively. One such skill is aura of faith. Nothing comes close to a primary monk when it comes to healing. And when primary monks chain their healing, the extra healing from divine favor can really bring a character from the brink of death to maximum health, especially in fights against hydras or other elemental damage dealers.

I've done it a few times and received compliments for that.

Tormunda · Jun 15, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

I tend to tell the party upfront before we leave that I do not have res signet, which usually gets the group discussing who does and who will equip one. I'll try to remember that list who does, and then focus on helping keep one of them alive when the group is in a dire situation. It also never hurts to remind the last surviving healer with a quick, "I don't have res!" or simply "Run away! I'll hold them here!" to the one who does have a res signet when the healer goes down, and then try to pull the mob away from the downed monks position.

Maybe you can get away with no res in PvE as you can always do the - Run to Cut Scene - bit and res everyone.
But NEVER enter PvP without a form of res. No matter what class you are!

Synxernal · Jun 15, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I'm a W/Mo and I try my best to support my team by healing them whenever I can. ^__^

Akshara · Jun 15, 2005, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Maybe you can get away with no res in PvE as you can always do the - Run to Cut Scene - bit and res everyone.

Have played almost 200 hours of PvE, and have no idea what you're talking about here. Certainly if one player completes a mission, then everybody does. But in quests, there are no cutscenes. I'm not aware of any magic formula that resurrects the dead without a res signet or spell, without the entire party dying and being resurrected at once. I don't know if zoning to a new instance resurrects the other members, because I've never tried it... imho, that would be kinda weak.

Quote:

But NEVER enter PvP without a form of res. No matter what class you are!

Fwiw, I've been told that anyone who carries a res signet into PvP is a noob, and that no respectable PvP team would carry them. Whether that's true or not is a matter of opinion. Guess I'll just have to make up my own mind. And right now, I don't have room to carry a res signet in my build, thank you very much. Actually, I've looked at a ton of the PvP based builds listed and posted on this site, and rarely recall seeing a res signet among them.

Bottom line is... nobody is going to tell me what skills to eqiup in my own build, regardless of how authoritarian they come across with their tone.

Yoda66 · Jun 15, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

I am a lvl 20 Mo/W and wield a sword in the front row always.

....doh why is the monk not healing?......
.....nOOB, i am a warrior why dont you monk stay in the back my armor is better......

everybody, who ever spoke those words is a fool and has now idea what a monk is capable of..

Like a lot of reasonable guys said before above, YOU are responsible for your own health. Offcourse the principal of a team is working together and ofcourse i try to help my fellow compagnions stay alive, as i do espect that the W/Mo or R/N or whatever will do that for me too.

But anyone who thinks that a monk is synonym for healer is not worth the effort playing with. I never ordered an Elementalist before that he MUST use firemagic or ordered a ranger that he MUST have a pet ressurection with him.....???

Everyone must respect the skill choices the fellow partymembers make. They DO make those choises on purpose and have a REASON for having certain skills and doing what they do.

There is no right or wrong, it's about the way your team plays as a team.

Storn · Jun 15, 2005, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zubrowka

I play as a dedicated healer, so it's good to hear that all the part-time monks aren't stealing our job :-)

Secondary monks can have a hard time keeping themselves alive. On more than one occasion I have found myself healing a W/Mo. To heal a team effectively, you really need to have multiple spells. For example, I often use a combination of Healing Breeze and Reversal of Fortune to keep a teammate from dying. To keep my own heal high so I can focus on healing others I use Live Vicariously.

It's also a matter of focus. Dedicated healers have little else to do but to heal.

I'm a dedicated Healer Mo/Ra too.

But I carry an awesome bow, because I want to and my ranger skill of "run away" and "distracting shot" really come in handy. The downside is that I don't have as much energy as I could.

So I tell groups that I will heal as much as I can, but if I'm th only monk, healing 8 party members is goign to be very hard on me, please help me out by healing themselves and their fellows. i find as long as I communicate that first, 1) they tend to try. and 2) If it goes FUBAR, they understood why it happened.

But with another monk in the mix, even a Hench, I rock. Especially a Protection monk, because that Kiss of Dwayna stacks and all of sudden I'm healing for 100 pts for 5 energy.... I can do that a long, long, long time.

Its all about communication.

Storn · Jun 15, 2005, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda66

I am a lvl 20 Mo/W and wield a sword in the front row always.

....doh why is the monk not healing?......
.....nOOB, i am a warrior why dont you monk stay in the back my armor is better......

everybody, who ever spoke those words is a fool and has now idea what a monk is capable of..

Like a lot of reasonable guys said before above, YOU are responsible for your own health. Offcourse the principal of a team is working together and ofcourse i try to help my fellow compagnions stay alive, as i do espect that the W/Mo or R/N or whatever will do that for me too.

But anyone who thinks that a monk is synonym for healer is not worth the effort playing with. I never ordered an Elementalist before that he MUST use firemagic or ordered a ranger that he MUST have a pet ressurection with him.....???

Everyone must respect the skill choices the fellow partymembers make. They DO make those choises on purpose and have a REASON for having certain skills and doing what they do.

There is no right or wrong, it's about the way your team plays as a team.

I for one, think there is nothing wrong for being a sword wielding, front line monk, smitin' left and right.

BUT!!! please communicate that first, in town, so everyone understands... if everyone is informed, then everyone can adjust skills and tactics accordingly. But, it you didn't tell me, went running into the fray, I would be shaking my head wondering what the bejeebers is going on with you.

I,as a Healer monk, NEED to know that you are front line fighter so I can make sure I'm close enough and to watch yer health carefully. This is SO not a problem if you have at least one enchantment on you... I can heal you cheaply with Dwayna's Kiss (like i mentioned up top). But communication is key.

Yoda66 · Jun 15, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storn

BUT!!! please communicate that first, in town, so everyone understands... if everyone is informed, then everyone can adjust skills and tactics accordingly. But, it you didn't tell me, went running into the fray, I would be shaking my head wondering what the bejeebers is going on with you.

I dont agree here.
true, communication is the key and true, people must adjust skills to each other also I do tell people often in advance that i am a swordsfighting/smittingmonk.

BUT!!! In a true good party EVERYBODY is talking in advance what are his or her abilities and weaknesses. It is not my responsibility to be the only one telling people in town what i am.

He!, if you are a level 20 character and ASUME i am a healer just because I am playin monk, well..........

Storn · Jun 15, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

I meant, everyone in your team, while in town.... not everyone in the town.... sry, I wasn't clear with my wording.

And I'm not suggesting that YOU are the only one who should communicate... everyone should.

But there are certain Skill/weapon/Tactic choices that are more easily... misunderstood... last night I played with a very competent Mesmer who WASN'T a domination-centric skill set... and that miscommunication between her and the leader got us in hot water.... we all talked, we compensated and everything was fine.

Like I said, if I saw you run into a mob as a monk with a sword... I would be wondering... BUT if you TOLD me that you were a sword weilding monk... I would not be wondering and I would be adjusting my tactics to support yours.

cyberfuzz · Jun 15, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

uh who in their right mind expects someone with a secondary monk to heal you nomrally? nobody. hence why you should never leave town without some sort of a healer. w/mo's are probably the worst ones to rely on, my w/mo has mending on at all timees wich brings my energy rejen to 1. so i have 20 mana, and i have 2 5 energy attacks on me+my adreniline attacks which take up most of my mana. that is why each class has some form of healing for themselves, just incase you cant finda healing monk.

Algren Cole · Jun 15, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Warriors are useless....for everything. the peolpe that play them are useless...the class is useless...stop partying with them.

Esprit · Jun 15, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

As a Mo/N I always heal my party, and only during intense battles do I run out of energy, other than that my energy is usally around the 1/2 point.

Aside from that, this thread is "Grouping ethics" so I want to bring up another point for random groupings: Leaving a group halfway during a mission.

It happens way to frequently, you are questing or trying to do a quest and someone just leaves, no explanation, just *poof*, gone. In my opinion if you started a quest with a party, you should finish it, because, chances are, you will be needed during the quest. Yesterday I quested with 3 other people, we were going from Piken Square to Grendich Courthouse, and 2 of them left. It was not fun getting there. When you are level 10 or so, trying to fight 4-5 Charr at one time, it is pretty tough.

If I join a group, I feel like I have an obligation to finish the quest that was advertised.

It pisses me off when you can't finish a quest because someone decided that they didn't want to be in the party anymore.

Arvydas · Jun 15, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

They could've got disconnected. But I agree that you should stick it. If something really important in your RL pops up, at least tell the group that you're leaving, so they can decide on what to do and cope with the situation. And tell them before or after a battle, not during a battle.

Tiedye · Jun 15, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

This is especially common in the mission with the lightning drakes (Gates of Kryta, I believe) or the dragon's cave. The person will join the group under the assumption that they are there to actually do the mission, but then just disappear. Strangely enough, their disconnect seems to coincide with the last drake's death or their successful capture of an elite. I've never played a game where people can be so selfish and have such a disregard for the rest of their group.

Jun 15, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44	#75
Storn Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: May 2005	I meant, everyone in your team, while in town.... not everyone in the town.... sry, I wasn't clear with my wording. And I'm not suggesting that YOU are the only one who should communicate... everyone should. But there are certain Skill/weapon/Tactic choices that are more easily... misunderstood... last night I played with a very competent Mesmer who WASN'T a domination-centric skill set... and that miscommunication between her and the leader got us in hot water.... we all talked, we compensated and everything was fine. Like I said, if I saw you run into a mob as a monk with a sword... I would be wondering... BUT if you TOLD me that you were a sword weilding monk... I would not be wondering and I would be adjusting my tactics to support yours. Last edited by Storn; Jun 15, 2005 at 02:49 PM // 14:49..

Jun 14, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12	#64
Tellani Artini Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: America Guild: The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS] Profession: R/	I think healing prayers is a horrible choice for a w/mo, smiting all the way.

Jun 15, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00	#69
Synxernal Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jun 2005	I'm a W/Mo and I try my best to support my team by healing them whenever I can. ^__^

Jun 15, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02	#71
Yoda66 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: May 2005	I am a lvl 20 Mo/W and wield a sword in the front row always. ....doh why is the monk not healing?...... .....nOOB, i am a warrior why dont you monk stay in the back my armor is better...... everybody, who ever spoke those words is a fool and has now idea what a monk is capable of.. Like a lot of reasonable guys said before above, YOU are responsible for your own health. Offcourse the principal of a team is working together and ofcourse i try to help my fellow compagnions stay alive, as i do espect that the W/Mo or R/N or whatever will do that for me too. But anyone who thinks that a monk is synonym for healer is not worth the effort playing with. I never ordered an Elementalist before that he MUST use firemagic or ordered a ranger that he MUST have a pet ressurection with him.....??? Everyone must respect the skill choices the fellow partymembers make. They DO make those choises on purpose and have a REASON for having certain skills and doing what they do. There is no right or wrong, it's about the way your team plays as a team.

Jun 15, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30	#76
cyberfuzz Ascalonian Squire Join Date: May 2005	uh who in their right mind expects someone with a secondary monk to heal you nomrally? nobody. hence why you should never leave town without some sort of a healer. w/mo's are probably the worst ones to rely on, my w/mo has mending on at all timees wich brings my energy rejen to 1. so i have 20 mana, and i have 2 5 energy attacks on me+my adreniline attacks which take up most of my mana. that is why each class has some form of healing for themselves, just incase you cant finda healing monk.

Jun 15, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48	#77
Algren Cole Banned Join Date: Jun 2005	Warriors are useless....for everything. the peolpe that play them are useless...the class is useless...stop partying with them.

Jun 15, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07	#78
Esprit Desert Nomad Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: Dvd Forums [DVDF] Profession: E/	As a Mo/N I always heal my party, and only during intense battles do I run out of energy, other than that my energy is usally around the 1/2 point. Aside from that, this thread is "Grouping ethics" so I want to bring up another point for random groupings: Leaving a group halfway during a mission. It happens way to frequently, you are questing or trying to do a quest and someone just leaves, no explanation, just poof, gone. In my opinion if you started a quest with a party, you should finish it, because, chances are, you will be needed during the quest. Yesterday I quested with 3 other people, we were going from Piken Square to Grendich Courthouse, and 2 of them left. It was not fun getting there. When you are level 10 or so, trying to fight 4-5 Charr at one time, it is pretty tough. If I join a group, I feel like I have an obligation to finish the quest that was advertised. It pisses me off when you can't finish a quest because someone decided that they didn't want to be in the party anymore.

Jun 15, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14	#79
Arvydas Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Guild: Soul Devourers Profession: W/Mo	They could've got disconnected. But I agree that you should stick it. If something really important in your RL pops up, at least tell the group that you're leaving, so they can decide on what to do and cope with the situation. And tell them before or after a battle, not during a battle.

Jun 15, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52	#80
Tiedye Ascalonian Squire Join Date: May 2005	This is especially common in the mission with the lightning drakes (Gates of Kryta, I believe) or the dragon's cave. The person will join the group under the assumption that they are there to actually do the mission, but then just disappear. Strangely enough, their disconnect seems to coincide with the last drake's death or their successful capture of an elite. I've never played a game where people can be so selfish and have such a disregard for the rest of their group.